Legislature(2005 - 2006)CAPITOL 124
04/10/2006 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB304 | |
| HB464 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| = | HB 304 | ||
| = | HB 464 | ||
HB 304-COMMERCIAL FISHING LOAN PROGRAM CO-CHAIR RAMRAS announced that the first order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 304, "An Act relating to the commercial fishing loan program; and providing for an effective date." RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative John Coghill, Alaska State Legislature, presented HB 304 on behalf of Representative Coghill, Sponsor. 1:40:08 PM CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said version L was before the committee. MS. MOSS said it was discussed but not adopted. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON noted that Version L was adopted as a working document. He said Co-Chair Samuels brought up an amendment in the last committee and it may have been adopted. MS. MOSS said it was discussed, but no amendments passed. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON suggested offering Co-Chair Samuels amendment as Amendment 5. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO moved Amendment 1, as follows [original punctuation provided]: Page 2, line 8: Delete: "other recognized commercial lending institutions," Insert: A state financial institution as defined in AS 06.01.050(3), a federally-chartered financial institution, or the Commercial Fishing and Agricultural Bank, REPRESENTATIVE ELKINS objected. MS. MOSS said Amendment 1 resulted from Representative Gatto's concern that a financial institution was not adequately defined. She said that Mark Davis, Director, Division of Banking and Securities, agreed and suggested the amendment language. Hearing no further objections, Amendment 1 carried. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON offered Amendment 2 as follows [original punctuation provided]: Page 5, line 24 Delete "$335,000" Insert "$400,000" REPRESENTATIVE GATTO objected. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON explained that there are outstanding loans, including at least five from his district, that are between $335,000 and $400,000, "and this is the refinancing portion." He said there is only one outstanding loan that is above that, but it has been "paid down to that level." He said making the loan limit $400,000 "would allow the refinancing of the traditional amounts here that have been used in my district." He noted that it is still quite a reduction from the current limit of $630,000. He said quota, community, and product quality loans used to be excluded from the limit, "and now we are including those in the refinance amount, so dropping this refinance amount to $335,000 and including all of those different portions, which used to be outside, would severely restrict the program." REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked how $400,000 came about. 1:45:35 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said there are five loans out in his district that are between $335,000 and $400,000 and only one above that. The bill will still present a severe restriction but will maintain the majority of current loans in his district. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO withdrew his objection. MS. MOSS said Representative Coghill opposes the amendment, "because the whole genesis of this bill was to determine how far in debt you want somebody to go before they drown." She said loans can be up to $630,000, and "refinancing is already in this bill limited to $200,000, and the $335,000, we don't believe really affects any existing loans because of the fact that refinancing is limited to $200,000 already." However, he will go with what the committee decides, she stated. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said it is his understanding that a number of different loans will now be included in the total limit. CO-CHAIR RAMRAS asked about borrowers currently above the new limit. 1:48:05 PM GREG WINEGAR, Director, Division of Investments, Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development, said there are six borrowers who have loans of over $335,000, and those individuals will be grandfathered in. He said the attorney general's office said that if interest rates decline, these six individuals would not be able to refinance, but the loans would not become due as a result of the legislation. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked Mr. Winegar to explain the impacts of the aggregation of different loans. MR. WINEGAR said part of the statute, called external refinancing, allows borrowers to refinance existing loans from other lenders. He said this bill will reduce that limit from [$300,000 to $200,000]. The $335,000 limit relates to a combination of all of these various loans. Under the existing statute, the combination of loans are limited to $930,000, and that would be reduced to $335,000 under this bill. There are no borrowers even close to the current limit, but legally they could be. He said each borrower would have to demonstrate adequate collateral and the capacity for repayment. REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if any borrowers are "drowning in debt." 1:51:10 PM MR. WINEGAR said he would not use that terminology, but there have been unanticipated difficulties. The Division has a lot of latitude to work with those individuals, but delinquency rates are down "in the 5 percent range." REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said the loans include quota share, vessel, and permit loans, and the limit is on the aggregate amount. The [limits might be reached] if there is a drop in the interest rates and "somebody has $380,000 in loans that they would like to refinance at a lower interest rate. All of a sudden we're saying, 'Oh we're going to keep you at the high interest rate and not allow you to refinance.'" REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked about the refinance limit of $200,000 and if the amendment would change it to $400,000. 1:53:27 PM MR. WINEGAR said there are two types of refinancing. The $200,000 limit refers to an external refinance, where the state offers refinancing to an individual who has a loan from another lender. Another type just allows any borrower to refinance their loans internally. If those borrowers were over the limit, they are the ones who could not refinance if interest rates decline. If someone had an external refinance of $200,000, that would also count against the $335,000 limit, he said. "It is the combination of all of those loans that would need to be under $335,000, or $400,000 as proposed in the amendment." 1:54:31 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said quota share loans are $20 per pound, "so you don't get very much poundage to maintain an industry...so if you have an aggregate of boat and quota loan at $335,000, you basically [are] saying we are going to keep these people at an uneconomic limit." He said the state has this program to keep Alaskans in the industry, and borrowers should be allowed to refinance if interest rates fall. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked about page 5, line 21, and if (C), (D), and (F) amount to about $65,000. He asked Representative Seaton if his intent was to include that amount in the total, thereby raising it to $400,000. 1:55:50 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said it depends on personal needs. He said (C) is quota share loans, which could be the $400,000 in itself. "This is an aggregated amount of $400,000, which isn't very much to have your entire fishing operation, including quota, boat, permits, everything. Previously those were excluded and now they are being included in this aggregated amount." Mr. Winegar just testified that the current limit is $930,000, and the amendment allows it to go down to $400,000. He said going below an amount that several borrowers are above and who wouldn't be able to refinance, doesn't seem to be the spirit of the program. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked what (D) and (F) constitute. MR. WINEGAR said (C) is quota shares, (D) is the tax obligation loans, and (E) is the community quota entity program, which doesn't equate to individual borrowers-it is a separate program. He said (F) is for product quality improvements for processors. Current statute excludes all of those things, he noted, but the bill is limiting all loans added together. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked what the highest loan is. 1:58:51 PM MR. WINEGAR said the balance for that person is $530,000. REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD said the logic is if others could come in and refinance, that person could too. He said this program has served the community well. REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER suggested an amendment to grandfather current borrowers and allow them to refinance. MS. MOSS said she has not heard this discussion. "Considering the fact that you are including more loan programs in the limit, I don't think Representative Coghill would-I think he would change his position on the $400,000." 2:00:22 PM REPRESENTATIVE GATTO removed his objection. Hearing no further objections, Amendment 2 carried. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said Amendment 3 is not being offered. He offered Amendment 4 as follows [original punctuation provided]: Page 4, line 31-Page 5, line 2 Delete all revised language (2) may not bear interest exceeding [the prime rate plus two percentage points; for purposes of this paragraph. "prime rate" has the meaning given in AS 44.88.599;] Insert existing statutory language to read: (2) may not bear interest exceeding 10 ½ percent; REPRESENTATIVE GATTO objected. 2:01:19 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said HB 304 eliminates the 10.5 percent cap on interest rates, and this amendment retains that cap. MS. MOSS said Representative Coghill thinks the state is already subsidizing these clients because many elements of the loan program can freeze interest or allow more time to pay back debts. If the state is in the lending business, it should have the same flexibility as any other financial institute to base interest rates on prime rates. She noted that these are loans of last resort, and in the private sector, the higher the risk, the higher the interest--and interest rates are not going down. 2:02:44 PM MS. MOSS said, in response to Co-Chair Ramras, that the prime rate is tied to the Wall Street Journal rate. CO-CHAIR RAMRAS noted that the federal prime rate is five, but current [commercial loans] are not at seven percent. The committee took an at-ease from 2:03 p.m. to 2:07:36 PM. CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said if the federal fund rate is at five percent, the lowest published prime rate may be about seven percent, so the prime plus two rate is about 4 points above the "fed rate." He said the program has a very low delinquency rate, and the state, by raising the interest rate, would earn more in interest but risk more in delinquencies. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if the 10.5 percent limit is for the borrower or the lender. 2:09:29 PM MS. MOSS said the lender can't charge more than 10.5 percent. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said if prime is seven, why shouldn't the state be able to charge 11 percent interest? That is what the free market would require, he stated. MR. WINEGAR said current statute restricts the rate from being over 10.5 percent. He said prime plus two kicks in until it goes above 10.5. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO suggested a halt in providing loans when interest rates go beyond 10.5, because someone could turn around and sell the loan for 14 percent. CO-CHAIR RAMRAS surmised that a loan couldn't be sold. He said his plumber has a sub-prime borrowing rate from Key Bank on a line of credit, which could be prime minus 1. Co-Chair Ramras borrows at prime plus 1 because he is in the restaurant business. He said some corporations are "prime borrowers." 2:12:33 PM REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if the state will give a 10.5 percent loan when interest rates are 20 percent. MR. WINEGAR said under the existing statute, yes. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said it would be foolish to not borrow money. MR. WINEGAR said if a person met the eligibility requirement, he or she would probably pursue that loan. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said to remember the program is designed for mom & pop businesses, not big corporations, and borrowers have to be rejected by a commercial bank. To maintain a diverse industry with some long term planning, interest rates should be dependable. The borrowers are "local coastal folks that don't have lots and lots of assets." The purpose of the amendment is to keep people working and in the industry and allow them some security, and it will set people up to fail if interest rates go up to 17 percent. He added that the borrower has to be an Alaska resident and involved in the industry "for a while." 2:15:22 PM REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said it may not be important to know who the borrower is. Every applicant, rich or poor, has a barrier to getting the loan. He questioned making loans for five percentage points less than the market demands. He said, "If indeed you are a small fisherman and you would like to small fish, well, in the existing market it's too expensive to do it." He said he sees no logic besides, "I'm a nice guy; I'd like to give cheaper loans than the free market." CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he has borrowed from AIDEA and plans to do so in the future. He said getting Alaskans access to capital is A-OK with him. The state has money in its general fund, so it costs "zero" to loan money. He added that the state cannot lose money by lending money, but it can lose from delinquency and defaults. He added that by letting the interest rates go up, the state risks high default rates. 2:18:22 PM REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked if the same person is [getting] a new loan every year. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said fishermen will have a boat and a permit and then may diversify when salmon is down. He said people are not eager to borrow at prime plus two, and the division requires careful scrutiny of the borrower. The delinquency rate shows that the division is doing a good job, he stated, and the program makes money every year. It has paid back all of the initial deposit and is now paying dividends, he said. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO spoke of secondary education and farm loans and asked if the interest rate cap is unique for state loans. 2:21:28 PM MS. MOSS said that is one reason the bill was introduced. Representative Coghill wanted to eliminate the Division of Investment, but was convinced by Mr. Winegar that [the program] is good for fishermen because of the ups and downs in the industry. But she thinks he would agree with Representative Gatto and said there are "other provisions of this loan program that aren't visible in this bill that draw some concern to [Representative Coghill], and that is that interest has been put on a freeze." There are special conditions given to fishermen that wouldn't be in any other state loan program, she stated. 2:22:53 PM REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked if the Commercial Fishing and Agriculture Bank (CFAB) has a cap. LEA KLINGERT, President, Alaska Commercial Fishing and Agriculture Bank, said CFAB loans are at a variable interest rate that is not tied to prime but to an internal base. It is on a floating rate called base plus two. Right now the base is 6.5 percent, and she said it fluctuates. 2:24:39 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said this [loan program] is not giving credits like the state provides to mining or oil industries. "This isn't a tax credit...it is capping an interest rate, so we are making money on all these loans." There is nothing for free but it helps keep people in the industry, he said. This program works for maintaining Alaska businesses here and does a good job. REPRESENTATIVE GATTO said he doesn't have a problem with that but is concerned with "the inherent unfairness of bona fide opportunity for one group at the expense to every single other group." He said he hasn't heard of a single other group that has a cap on interest rates. He asked to hear the sponsor's viewpoint. MS. MOSS said Representative Coghill is in a meeting and this bill still has a hearing in the House Finance Committee. REPRESENTATIVE SEATON read from the statutes and said interest on post secondary loans may not exceed 8.25 percent. 2:27:56 PM CO-CHAIR RAMRAS said he is comfortable with the House Finance Committee looking at it. A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Crawford, Ramras, Olson, Seaton, and Elkins voted in favor of Amendment 4. Representative Gatto voted against it. Therefore, Amendment 4 carried by a vote of 5-1. 2:30:07 PM REPRESENTATIVE SEATON moved to report CSHB 304(FSH), as amended, out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. Hearing no objections, CSHB 304(RES) was passed out of the House Resources Standing Committee. [At the end of the meeting Representative Seaton noted that he is in the fishing industry but he has never had a state loan.] 2:31:10 PM
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